1. "In Indian philosophy, the influence of an individual's past actions on his future lives or reincarnations. It is based on the conviction that the present life is only one in a chain of lives (see samsara). The accumulated moral energy of a person's life determines his or her character, class status, and disposition in the next life. The process is automatic, and no interference by the gods is possible. In the course of a chain of lives, people can perfect themselves and reach the level of Brahma, or they can degrade themselves to the extent that they return to life as animals. The concept of karma, basic to Hinduism, was also incorporated into Buddhism and Jainism.

For more information on karma, visit Britannica.com."

2. Hinduism & Buddhism. The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny.

Okay, here is my belief, after giving a couple of definitions.

I've stated before. karma is not necessarily negative!!!
I've mentioned karma in a couple of posts and have had negative responses.

~For me, karma means, if you do something good you will get something good in return. If you do something bad, bad things will happen to you, or maybe a d one.

However, it is not that simple. Let us take a hypothetical situation. You murder someone. Obviously one of the worst case scenarios.

*Now, I'm, passionate about this because so many people have disagreed with me. I'm not arguing, I'm not angry, I'm just presenting a spirited debate. So, I am going to present my argument as to why karma is not negative. Please get that out of your heads! Karma is not negative!!!*

Karma=cause and effect

It is believed to be a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do.
Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward; karma simply deals with what is.
An old Japanese man (I know it's cliche, but true) once told me, there is no good or bad, right or wrong, there just is.

All that we say or do, no one can say thqt it is right or wrong, good or bad, it just is.

Going back to the murder (I don't like using this as an example, however, it is the easiest to understand), suppose the person who was murdered had also murdered someone and never would have been caught?

Justice?
Karma?
Is it the same?

What about the person who murdered the murderer?
Well, that's simple. They committed a crime.

However, the one who was murdered, had he never been caught, might have had to live under a bridge, eating food out of garbage cans. That might have been hell for him.

To take it a step further, if the one who was murdered, wasn't murdered, he might have killed a so-called innocent person. What if the person wo he might have killed was a serial killer? If he wasn't killed, he could have killed a few people.

But what if those people deserved to be killed?

There are sop many people that are killed and we say, 'they were great people, they shouldn't have been killed'

How do we know?

How do we know that the perspn who was murdered would not have killed someone in a drunken driving accident? Or a fit of rage?

Ad nauseum....

I would appreciate any thoughts on this subject since there are so many here who don't believe in karma and don't have the slightest idea what it is.

Thanks..

Hi, TT:)

Sorry if I've said anything that made you think I was being judgemental and negative.

When I said I dont like the word Karma I was talking f the way it is used nowadays NOT that I didn't believe in it
After all Karma is only the law of cause and effect. For every thing that is done an effect arises from that.

I dont like the way the word karma is used by people nowadays. I think I've given this example before but I'll do it again.
My friend had a long decline to death. At her funeral a 'friend' of hers said "she must have had a lot of karma to deal with".

Unfortunately that is the way it's been taken on, as a way of judging others. It doesn't matter how they appear, what some people see is the suffering they're going through and attribute that to karma. They dont necessarily know how the suffering affects those people, some may be learning, some may be teaching...who knows! Nor is it up to us to know.


The reason for a person's suffering/happiness/lifestyle is between them and their maker/universe/whatever it is not the business of other people as you said so well in your example

Okay Timetraveler got me researching Karma.....lol. My understanding of karma through some of the web pages that I have come across is that karma is similar to the law of attraction. Here are some of the passages I have come across. And just for the record I have never considered karma positive or negative to me karma is what you make it.



"You get what you give". I find myself saying this a lot.

I found this website rather interesting on explaining Karma.
http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/karma.html

Timetraveler, You bring up some very good points and I am going to go through and look at some other web pages. Very interesting debate and I am curious to see how it turns out.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that people who were murdered were not great people and if they weren't murdered they could kill someone, so its good they aren't here anymore????

Mouse
My interpretation of that statement is that we do not know why they were killed. That could have been one of their purposes in this lifetime.
As I said in the above post we should not be judging others on our perception of karma.
We dont know why people incarnate. We dont even know why we ourselves have come this time.
All we can do is accept others and live our own lives in the best way we can.

Sorry I lumped those two questions into one.

My father was just murdered in February and he was a good person. He had his faults just like everyone else does and did not deserve to be murdered, that's for sure.

People have different definitions of karma and that is what is good about this site is that people aren't judgemental and respect others views and beliefs. I have never seen anyone here say they didn't know what karma was.

I knew your father had died but not the circumstances. So many unanswered questions for you :(

My own interpretation is that "karma" is the Universal Law of cause and effect. I agree with cause and effect: also for every negative there is a positive.
BB is right, that unfortunately people are too quick to shout "karma" in too many circumstances.

I don't think that this was very necessary of you to post



Our members are not idiots and will come to their own conclusions.

I am sure also that when he has the time Jim could debate this with you very well.

TT? Where did ya go?

I do agree with you ady in this about karma, in cause and effect, but if we are to believe that every thing has a purpose, that we would never really fully understand that through tragic events such as murders etc, that we have fulfilled the life plan we have been given. this is one of my own theories, which l can be totally wrong, l am truly sorry if l am..

interesting debate, l am looking forward to jims insight on this subject with keen interest. xxx hugs skydancing xxx

I'm happy you didn't give up on this topic, Greg, because you are so close to a breakthrough in your understanding of Karma, the Law of Cause and Effect.

Sarah said, "In Buddhism however, Karma mainly refers to one's intention of motivation while doing an action. The shortest explanation of Karma I know is: 'you get what you give.' In other words, whatever you do intentionally to others, a similar thing will happen to yourself in the future."

Let's explore this further, because I think people are stopping too soon at the interpretation. It goes way beyond the so-called "eye for an eye" theory. You see, there is no such thing as punishment in this Universe. No one doles out punishment to you but you. You are your own judge and jury and executioner. Life here on this 3-D plane is all about role playing and getting as much pleasure out of the physical experience as possible. We attract our fears to us like a magnet to give ourselves an opportunity to get rid of them. We attract experiences that irritate or anger us to make ourselves aware of the feelings that are standing in the way of our happiness.

Right on, Bluebell! We see someone suffering and we hurt for them. It reminds us of our own pain. That's a blessing! Who's to say that suffering person didn't DESIRE to inspire the rest of us or deter us from taking the same path just by suffering in front of us? Look deeper. There is a benefit in every experience. It is not punishment. No one suffers or dies in vain. It is choice. We sacrifice for the good of others. We die when we have had enough of this plane. There are greater Universes, after all. We're not prisoners here. We can leave at will, and we choose how and when we will leave this earth.

Very well said loramars.....I was thinking along the lines of Law of Attraction but I think Law of Cause and Effect fits much better.

I can't subscribe to the popular definition of Karma. Before I respond to a post about it, I feel compelled to explain my interpretation of the Law of Cause and Effect. If you are reacting adversely to people's disclaimers, then perhaps you feel compelled to defend your current understanding of Karma. Don't be discouraged by opposition, Greg. This forum presents a wonderful opportunity for you to debate your point of view on these subjects that have you scratching your head and finally find some clarity for yourself.



Now this view of Karma is the popular one that I reject out of hand. You are implying that 1) Some force or entity greater than ourself is determining what we have earned and bringing it around to us. But I know that even when I was kind to others, they were not always kind to me. I know that when I did or said things I regretted later, nothing horrible happened to me. In fact, the recipient of my wrath actually forgave me and d me, regardless. I know that no one I ever d suffered because of anything I ever said or did, and they did not get well just because I prayed for their recovery. I learned that my power is limited to my own reality. I can inspire. I can influence. But only if they want it for themselves does anything I wish affect them. 2) you are judging actions to be good or bad, and what is that based on? Who determines what is good or bad? The Church? The people caught in the crossfire? This theory raises more questions than it answers.



Do you really understand this concept? What you are presenting here contradicts this message. You have to judge a person's actions as good or bad in order to apply your version of Karma to their life.




Who is judging murder as a crime? Society. There are no victims, Greg, and I know many people reading this will disagree because they also think in terms of guilty or innocent. The murderer cannot murder someone without their willing participation, and that could be as simple as a FEELING that the world is unsafe and that we are all vulnerable to those caple of ending our lives.

John Lennon was interviewed years before his murder. The reporter asked him, "How do you think you will leave this earth?" He responded, "I'll probably be offed by some whacko." It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The idea occurred to him because he FELT there were crazy people willing and able to murder others, and that he might be a target one day. So be it.

Whatever we feel, we attract to us like a magnet.




I think you are defending the popular version of Karma and not rising above it to try to comprehend the bigger picture, Greg. In this example of murder, you are judging the victim to be guilty of some crime and deserving of being killed. But in reality, the murderer and victim are just role playing. Neither is guilty or innocent. In fact, there is a lesson here about the level we are operating on.

I remember a line by Robin Williams in a movie about reincarnation in which he refers to Karma as "the Cosmic credit card plan." What you do to them in a past life, they get to do to you in this life. That's the interpretation most sources use for the word Karma. I just don't subscribe to that definition anymore. I can't. I know better.

If you don't want violence in your life, don't read about it. Don't watch it on television. Don't be afraid of it. KNOW that violence is not a part of your life.

Something else....What about people killed by drunk drivers? That's murder, too. In this scenerio, is the drunk person bad? Is the murdered person getting a pay back for past bad deeds that go so far back that we just can't know it? Or could it be that the victim wanted to contribute enlightenment to this plane by sacrificing themselves for the greater good? They didn't plan on being hit by a car or even leaving this plane so soon, but their death started a chain of events that led to saving more lives. Like the girl whose mother started MADD (Mother's Against Drunk Drivers).

There is a BENEFIT in every experience. Look beyond judgment. Enlightenment is right there.

I always get so frustrated with the idea of Karma. I'm not saying that I don't believe in it, but I too have those same thoughts as you.

Whats to learn in THIS life about karma from a past life? I mean the idea that we are paying for 'bad deeds' from a life we lived and DON'T EVEN REMEMBER a few hundred years ago is just insane. IMO.

What do you mean? I started the fire that burned down the village and now everything I own is gonna go up in flames in this life? Naaa man, can't do it.



WE determine that, only I can say what actions I have done are right or wrong, personally to me. It's not society that decides in the end, it's us, ourselves and if one can stop and realize this, that we are all makers of our own destiny, things would go alot smoother. I think it starts with personal accountability and PERSONAL forgiveness. I've noticed alot of people beat the hell out of themselves for deeds they see as 'wrong' and I just can't understand this. You live, you learn and THEN you move on. And you know when Ali starts cappen words, lmao, it's become more passionate.



What if we stopped judging others actions? I think that's where it starts. And that's one of the hardest parts, apart from self forgiveness. I think to many people judge to many things in this world, we're constantly judging! Even I am, but you know what I'm doing? I'm learning to take a step back and think very carefully before I act or speak.

I question my own motives and I peak into the near future and play it all out in my head. I move from there. I look for a bright spot, I DON'T jump to conclusions and I make stable decisions. And from those decisions isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' issue with me, because if I've thought it out and I'm honest with myself then I'm 'alright'. Hell alot of times I'm freaken GREAT. HA HA HA.



Instinctively I know what you say is true and I understand that. It takes TIME to accept it for alot of people. I still have to work on that one there because things flow as they will and we do truly shape our destinys. We shape OUR destinys, not others. That's the most important part there I think.



Your talking about the movie "What Dreams May Come." I'm pretty sure and it's one of my all time favorite movies! Lets not get me started on that one! I the way her soul broke that mold and the visuals where totally outstanding!



I've never said I don't believe in "Karma" per se and don't understand the 'popular' definition of Karma. I simply don't apply to the popular definition of Karma. It is unacceptable to me. I believe that this entire thing is an opinion and it is all pretty much open to interpretations on ones personal feelings.

And it is disempowering. It makes you feel the way the Church does when they ask you not to question why things happen. You are supposed to just take whatever Life dishes out and be humble about it. I don't know about you, but I'm not one to lay down and take anything. I'm too fiesty for that. It's not that I don't know my limitations, I just don't want someone else telling me what they are.



Good point.



Another good point. The whole concept of GUILT is counterproductive. It's much more progressive to just assess the situation, acknowledge that the results of your actions was not what you had hoped, and devise a new course of action. Be a scientist! Remember the formula you used that didn't pan out and don't repeat it. Change your strategy until you finally get the results you really really want. There are no mistakes in life, only opportunity, and opportunities are as abundant as you want them to be.



The judgments are the last to go, Ali, and that's because we live in a world of polarity. The thing is, you don't want to get stuck in judgment. It prohibits you from moving forward. Acknowledge the judgment and then let it go. Remember that we are influenced by other people's feelings about themselves. If someone comes into our sphere and we judge them harshly, even when we'd rather not, it could be that they don't feel very good about themselves. you can send a little their way to help uplift their spirits. In turn, you'll feel better around them.



Good for you!




Actually, the movie I'm referrnig to is called DEAD AGAIN. Williams only played a small role.

Thanks for the dialogue, Ali. I enjoyed it.

I just wanted to add, death isn't always a bad thing. It can be a relief from a painful life or there could have been something horrible to come in someone's life that no one knows about if they had lived, so they might be so-called 'dodging a bullet' by leaving this life at the time they do. We don't know what's coming and we don't know why we die at the times we do, so I feel that death isn't always the worst thing.

TT, I understand your view about karma and agree that it isn't good/bad or positive/negative itself, it just is the fact of cause and affect.

Mouse, I'm so sorry about your father. I hope that all of that is resolved soon.

Well said, AM. There is also the possibility that what we desire most of all is an experience we cannot have on this 3-D plane. We may need to be free to become all we want to be.

Life is eternal. There is no death.

I see this at work with the public quite often. Here's a little story about perceptions.

A black man walks in, sits down and my friend Kim goes to take care of him. She gets his drink, acts polite and drops his ticket off at his table. We're supposed to drop the ticket off when we take the drink but sometimes we get rushed and that comes a little later. On this occasion she brings the ticket with the drink. The first thing the man says was that it was racist of her to do so because in dropping his ticket off he thinks she thinks he's gonna walk on his ticket simply because he's black.

Thoughts are things, this man walks through out our world expecting people to see his color and not him.

Another black man walks in and sits at one of my tables. I get his drink, work out what he wants to eat and take care of him. It's all very simple and smooth, the man leaves with a smile on his face and a 5 on the table. Perception.

Sending a little someone's way can change their entire day.

It's like the gay man in the secret, Alis, once he stops concentrating on the negatives of his sexuality everything becomes easier for him

TT we could use your thoughts on all this discussion

Great example, Ali. Sometimes we don't realize that what we think others are doing to us, we are really doing to ourselves just by holding onto the prejudicial feelings. Then we have to ask ourselves what benefit it is serving in our lives at the moment to feel prejudiced against. Believe me, if we are playing out that drama, we are gaining something by it. It could be as simple as avoiding taking a chance on succeeding on our own merits. Maybe we are not ready to face being judged as an individual with skills and talents that may or may not be accepted by others as worthy. Maybe we haven't spent enough time building up good self esteem by testing our skills on the market. Maybe it cushions the blow to our ego to just imagine ourselves a part of a minority that just never gets a break in life.

I've had to question myself on occasion. Almost every time I was feeling like the underdog I realized that I really didn't want to get involved. It was easier to imagine myself being rejected that to admit that I was finding something objectionable about those people.

Who would have thought it would be so hard sometimes for us to say what we mean and mean what we say instead of playing little mind games with ourself about acceptance and rejection? Yet, it happens every day.

Hey, Greg? Are you lurking? Any new thoughts to share?